Insisting you’re the original when you are demonstrably the clone is not going to win you any brotherly love… Not when you’re already getting the lion’s share of the parental love.
Have to agree on that one it actually seemed healthy when he was telling the story that from his point of view he’s the original, but now he seems to actually be arguing with Tylor the point. On the one hand he seems to really want to get along with Tylor but at the same time he seems to be insisting his story is more or less true. By the way notice how the fake names are reversed
I dunno. You may be right, but he didn’t say “Me!”, he said, “Me, too!”
At this point it is more like he is trying to convey a point that may be hard for the original to get… that from the duplicate’s perspective the pre-dup time is their history, too.
The thing that makes that less true here than in some stories like this is that there seem to be some memory differences… things that the duplicate doesn’t know. Plus, it was my impression that the duplicate seemed to start off with something of a non-Tyler-y blank slate as a basis, though maybe I am reading too much into his behavior at the time.
Anyway, in a story where you have a duplicate with shared memories, it is pretty natural for the “shared history” to be a factor in the adjustment of the original, the duplicate, and their friends. From the perspective of the people around them, for instance, the duplicate is a stranger who has suddenly appeared, but from the perspective of the duplicate, the people around him are suddenly treating him like a stranger.
Fog has a good point. I never really understood a creativity block, because I’ve never known anyone to put all their eggs in one basket. Does it have something to do with that weak minded Chinese curse about having a wonderful idea and not being able to express it?
@ROCK
Show me something you believe to be both “original” and “admired” by the public at large, and I could probably trace the origin through a multitude of people that didn’t get any or only partial credit for inspiring or influencing any of it.
If you were going to explore the amazon rain forest, or climb mount rushmore, your path isn’t going to be the same as any one else that has gone before you.
Insisting that one individual is “more original” or has earned more love, more honor, or more respect, than the other because it came first, when it is clear that they are not only twins but equally powerful in their own right is silly. Think of the tremendous advantage Tyler numero uno has without the narcissistic helicopter parenting, and just imagine the “character” he can build now that his parents aren’t involved in creating his future. He no longer has to worry about being bullied at home and at school it’s a dream come true and both Tyler’s will find it mutually beneficial in the long run.
Neither Tyler has a real disadvantage in their social development in my opinion.
… What are you going on about? I do not recall insisting that either brother has earned more love, honour or respect than the other based on their order of birth. I meant that it’s not going to sit well with Tyler if Toby keeps insisting that he’s the original when he is demonstrably the clone.
If they truly share core memories of their life up to the moment of Toby’s emancipation, then I can understand why he’d see it that way. But it is highly unlikely that an only child suddenly confronted with a clone would appreciate being informed that not only are they no longer an only child, but their past is being claimed by the new arrival as well.
As for Tyler having a better shot at happiness without his parents’ constant foolishness (calling it ‘bullying’ seems a bit much), that may well be.
But they are still the only parents he has, the only ones he has ever known, and they now have someone who looks exactly like him, wasn’t there before and has all the powers they always wished he’d have. That’s going to cause anxiety in him, if not outright psychological scarring.
@Rock:
Actually, my understanding is that you stated specifically that “insisting that you are the original when you’re demonstrably the clone is not going to win you any brotherly love…”
The point you are missing is that they do have the same past, the exact same history. So, unless Tyler is one of those people that genuinely hates himself, because he’s not meeting some imagined potential we know he doesn’t have, Toby claiming to be first isn’t likely to instill jealousy regardless of whether or not he’s getting the “lion’s share” of the parental love.
Anxiety, as you so eloquently pointed out, and competition, which I believe to be the real condition of your argument making sense, are a completely different ball of wax. As long as Tyler’s needs are getting met it doesn’t really matter what other’s choose to believe about the relationship between Toby and Tyler.
If your concerned about social status, It’s no contest, in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king… MoonShadow is the most popular unknown superhero among Tyler’s class mates. Having failed in the art of covert operation Tyler has become Idolized for just being awesome, and I sincerely doubt Toby will get future credit for the feats of the great and powerful wizard that is MoonShadow. Eye rolling as it may be for the reluctant ones. His family is clearly impressed with their new addition and get to have what they always wanted, sure Toby get’s a blessing in that he is immediately accepted and Tyler is the black sheep. However, Tyler
I can understand the concept behind psychological scarring related to identity theft, but since his identity hasn’t yet been stolen, it’s not really a problem. Also, there are some human experiences that aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m confident every human being has experienced a hair cut.
I would assume Tyler has developed assorted skills for coping with disappointment at this point in his life. Your going to have to clarify your definition of anxiety because, my understanding is that you believe Tyler might be afraid that he was being “replaced,” or unloved, as if there isn’t enough love in the world. Whereas, my immediate concern on the other hand is that Tyler may be afraid he could lose out on specialized training, and other benefits, as a result of the new prodigy in the family.
Also, Love it is not something that is or should be conditional. People will honor and dishonor whom they please.
Tyler doesn’t have to hate himself to hate Toby, as they are different people now. Tyler never had that love at all, so can’t lose it. He wanted it, he perceives that Toby has it.
In truth, this story makes clearer than most a demonstration of people who love the concept they have of a person more than they love the person. Tyler really didn’t meet his parents’ concept of him, and so they tried to do things that would have killed him if he was actually what their perception of him was. As much as pretty much any abusive parent, they claimed to love him while doing things that showed they really hated him for not being who they expected.
If Tyler was insightful, he’d understand that his parents don’t love Toby more than they love him. They love neither of them, it’s just that Toby is a closer match for the idea that they love.
It’s possible that Tyler could miss out on stuff that he’d want because of Toby, but most of what he’ll miss out on is his parents’ continued attempts to “activate his latent superpowers”, which he continually found unpleasant because his powers specifically don’t want to be recognized and keeping him alive despite Tyler’s parents was probably the biggest threat to them being revealed. It is, after all, how I recognized Tyler’s powers.
Tyler’s better off with Toby getting their parents’ attention. Given the resources the Revenant has already spent to help Tyler, I would be willing to bet that he’ll continue to act as more of a parent than Tyler’s parents ever were. While the Revenant is less than an ideal parent, for someone with Tyler’s powers, he’s an acceptable one.
Toby probably isn’t better off for getting that attention, but he’s not smart enough to realize that yet. He might never be. Maybe Tyler won’t be either.
While Toby is no less a person for being a semi clone claiming he’s the origional, is still like claiming the brothers Grimm got their story ideas from Disney. Or claiming that a 1974 movie copied its 1990s remake in this case a remake with better special effects. This will annoy the origional creators. But Tylors real problem is that from what he can tell being the origional is all he has, so of course he will not like Toby claiming that as well.
Toby also has the interesting swiss-cheese memory about anything related to Moonshadow… Tyler’s early worry was about still not getting parental approval and losing his dvd’s. (Though I’d guess at that instant they would also be Toby’s) And Toby’s experiment that failed just increased his angst.
I did just realize that someday, they could be their own ‘World’s Finest’ teamup, right?
I think people are missing the point Toby is making. He’s not saying he is the original, he says “before there was only one ‘me.'” Me in quotation marks implying he’s not talking about himself in the traditional sense. Given what he said the point he is trying to make is that him and Tyler used to essentially one person, which is true considering all of Toby’s memories are Tyler’s and for a while Tyler was pretty much literally walking around in Toby’s body. Toby does acknowledge however that him and Tyler are different people now, it just didn’t occur to him about the clothes because he was going off of his alla Tyler’s previous preferences. They aren’t the same person anymore so they don’t have to dress or act the same. Tyler isn’t getting it because its a pretty advanced logical concept and he’s freaking 9.
Insisting you’re the original when you are demonstrably the clone is not going to win you any brotherly love… Not when you’re already getting the lion’s share of the parental love.
Have to agree on that one it actually seemed healthy when he was telling the story that from his point of view he’s the original, but now he seems to actually be arguing with Tylor the point. On the one hand he seems to really want to get along with Tylor but at the same time he seems to be insisting his story is more or less true. By the way notice how the fake names are reversed
This is far from the first story to have a “split-off twin”, but I like where this one seems to be going.
I dunno. You may be right, but he didn’t say “Me!”, he said, “Me, too!”
At this point it is more like he is trying to convey a point that may be hard for the original to get… that from the duplicate’s perspective the pre-dup time is their history, too.
The thing that makes that less true here than in some stories like this is that there seem to be some memory differences… things that the duplicate doesn’t know. Plus, it was my impression that the duplicate seemed to start off with something of a non-Tyler-y blank slate as a basis, though maybe I am reading too much into his behavior at the time.
Anyway, in a story where you have a duplicate with shared memories, it is pretty natural for the “shared history” to be a factor in the adjustment of the original, the duplicate, and their friends. From the perspective of the people around them, for instance, the duplicate is a stranger who has suddenly appeared, but from the perspective of the duplicate, the people around him are suddenly treating him like a stranger.
Watch The Sixth Day starring Arnold Schwartzenegger. The main character discovers a clone is trying to take over his life with his wife and children.
On the brighter side the two evil genious kids seem to be acting more like rivals than their usual hatred of each other. Well Victor is anyways.
Fog has a good point. I never really understood a creativity block, because I’ve never known anyone to put all their eggs in one basket. Does it have something to do with that weak minded Chinese curse about having a wonderful idea and not being able to express it?
@ROCK
Show me something you believe to be both “original” and “admired” by the public at large, and I could probably trace the origin through a multitude of people that didn’t get any or only partial credit for inspiring or influencing any of it.
If you were going to explore the amazon rain forest, or climb mount rushmore, your path isn’t going to be the same as any one else that has gone before you.
Insisting that one individual is “more original” or has earned more love, more honor, or more respect, than the other because it came first, when it is clear that they are not only twins but equally powerful in their own right is silly. Think of the tremendous advantage Tyler numero uno has without the narcissistic helicopter parenting, and just imagine the “character” he can build now that his parents aren’t involved in creating his future. He no longer has to worry about being bullied at home and at school it’s a dream come true and both Tyler’s will find it mutually beneficial in the long run.
Neither Tyler has a real disadvantage in their social development in my opinion.
… What are you going on about? I do not recall insisting that either brother has earned more love, honour or respect than the other based on their order of birth. I meant that it’s not going to sit well with Tyler if Toby keeps insisting that he’s the original when he is demonstrably the clone.
If they truly share core memories of their life up to the moment of Toby’s emancipation, then I can understand why he’d see it that way. But it is highly unlikely that an only child suddenly confronted with a clone would appreciate being informed that not only are they no longer an only child, but their past is being claimed by the new arrival as well.
As for Tyler having a better shot at happiness without his parents’ constant foolishness (calling it ‘bullying’ seems a bit much), that may well be.
But they are still the only parents he has, the only ones he has ever known, and they now have someone who looks exactly like him, wasn’t there before and has all the powers they always wished he’d have. That’s going to cause anxiety in him, if not outright psychological scarring.
@Rock:
Actually, my understanding is that you stated specifically that “insisting that you are the original when you’re demonstrably the clone is not going to win you any brotherly love…”
The point you are missing is that they do have the same past, the exact same history. So, unless Tyler is one of those people that genuinely hates himself, because he’s not meeting some imagined potential we know he doesn’t have, Toby claiming to be first isn’t likely to instill jealousy regardless of whether or not he’s getting the “lion’s share” of the parental love.
Anxiety, as you so eloquently pointed out, and competition, which I believe to be the real condition of your argument making sense, are a completely different ball of wax. As long as Tyler’s needs are getting met it doesn’t really matter what other’s choose to believe about the relationship between Toby and Tyler.
If your concerned about social status, It’s no contest, in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king… MoonShadow is the most popular unknown superhero among Tyler’s class mates. Having failed in the art of covert operation Tyler has become Idolized for just being awesome, and I sincerely doubt Toby will get future credit for the feats of the great and powerful wizard that is MoonShadow. Eye rolling as it may be for the reluctant ones. His family is clearly impressed with their new addition and get to have what they always wanted, sure Toby get’s a blessing in that he is immediately accepted and Tyler is the black sheep. However, Tyler
I can understand the concept behind psychological scarring related to identity theft, but since his identity hasn’t yet been stolen, it’s not really a problem. Also, there are some human experiences that aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m confident every human being has experienced a hair cut.
I would assume Tyler has developed assorted skills for coping with disappointment at this point in his life. Your going to have to clarify your definition of anxiety because, my understanding is that you believe Tyler might be afraid that he was being “replaced,” or unloved, as if there isn’t enough love in the world. Whereas, my immediate concern on the other hand is that Tyler may be afraid he could lose out on specialized training, and other benefits, as a result of the new prodigy in the family.
Also, Love it is not something that is or should be conditional. People will honor and dishonor whom they please.
Tyler doesn’t have to hate himself to hate Toby, as they are different people now. Tyler never had that love at all, so can’t lose it. He wanted it, he perceives that Toby has it.
In truth, this story makes clearer than most a demonstration of people who love the concept they have of a person more than they love the person. Tyler really didn’t meet his parents’ concept of him, and so they tried to do things that would have killed him if he was actually what their perception of him was. As much as pretty much any abusive parent, they claimed to love him while doing things that showed they really hated him for not being who they expected.
If Tyler was insightful, he’d understand that his parents don’t love Toby more than they love him. They love neither of them, it’s just that Toby is a closer match for the idea that they love.
It’s possible that Tyler could miss out on stuff that he’d want because of Toby, but most of what he’ll miss out on is his parents’ continued attempts to “activate his latent superpowers”, which he continually found unpleasant because his powers specifically don’t want to be recognized and keeping him alive despite Tyler’s parents was probably the biggest threat to them being revealed. It is, after all, how I recognized Tyler’s powers.
Tyler’s better off with Toby getting their parents’ attention. Given the resources the Revenant has already spent to help Tyler, I would be willing to bet that he’ll continue to act as more of a parent than Tyler’s parents ever were. While the Revenant is less than an ideal parent, for someone with Tyler’s powers, he’s an acceptable one.
Toby probably isn’t better off for getting that attention, but he’s not smart enough to realize that yet. He might never be. Maybe Tyler won’t be either.
While Toby is no less a person for being a semi clone claiming he’s the origional, is still like claiming the brothers Grimm got their story ideas from Disney. Or claiming that a 1974 movie copied its 1990s remake in this case a remake with better special effects. This will annoy the origional creators. But Tylors real problem is that from what he can tell being the origional is all he has, so of course he will not like Toby claiming that as well.
Toby also has the interesting swiss-cheese memory about anything related to Moonshadow… Tyler’s early worry was about still not getting parental approval and losing his dvd’s. (Though I’d guess at that instant they would also be Toby’s) And Toby’s experiment that failed just increased his angst.
I did just realize that someday, they could be their own ‘World’s Finest’ teamup, right?
I think people are missing the point Toby is making. He’s not saying he is the original, he says “before there was only one ‘me.'” Me in quotation marks implying he’s not talking about himself in the traditional sense. Given what he said the point he is trying to make is that him and Tyler used to essentially one person, which is true considering all of Toby’s memories are Tyler’s and for a while Tyler was pretty much literally walking around in Toby’s body. Toby does acknowledge however that him and Tyler are different people now, it just didn’t occur to him about the clothes because he was going off of his alla Tyler’s previous preferences. They aren’t the same person anymore so they don’t have to dress or act the same. Tyler isn’t getting it because its a pretty advanced logical concept and he’s freaking 9.