So another person with a vested interest in 84’s success. She may actually know what ‘the eye’ is, but whether or not the eye is also what Koschei’s treasure is another question.
She would probably fit right in with the Hodo shops in New Orleans where natives shot at medevac helicopters during Katrina, something only seen in Savage Somalia before.
Okay, when somebody introduces themselves as Baba Yaga and there’s reason to assume they’re telling the truth…start running. And don’t stop until you’re on the next continent.
Actually, it *does* depend on the tale; but yes, usually she’s the worst thing a hero can meet. And that’s compared to an arch-lich, a frigging Ghidora, and a dude who’s like a cross between Black Canary and a hurricane.
Not nessesarily. Baba Yaga is a what we call a “complex character” nowadays.
Sometimes she is the villain. Sometimes she helps the hero. But mostly she is just plain ambigious.
I consider her helpfullnes/longterm problematic equal to those Order and Chaos dudes that once helped Cecil and Moonshadow:
Plain helpfull in the immediate future. But get’s back to bite you soon.
Interesting. Cleverness and knowledge versus might and muscles… Except that might and muscles is a way to describe the FISS and that up to now, cleverness actually got you booted out of the egg. And sticking with an honest angle (veles looking for a true honest opponent) perhaps baba yaga would make a good defender… In her role as arch witch and crone, less so in the tricking people to renounce faith role. Looking forward to the conclusion.
Except that Julie has demonstrated wit and intellect during the challenges here – she answered the first guardians’ question honestly, she also spotted the flaw in the weave of the second trap, and she paid attention to Grigor back at the beginning so she could get past the mist guardian. She’s not just a FISS – she’s a hero.
It has been a struggle between honesty and trickery. Phlo admits she tricks people being the true leader of her group and gets kicked out together with neuronet who is hardly better than a villain. Firedrake admits his “fraud” and leaves the egg. Magic man should have been aware of his blatant dishonesty…
cleverness as in outwitting is being punished. Veles is a trickster God, his nemesis can’t be someone dishonest. Julie has integrity and she is intelligent and perceptive, that is not cleverness. See the eye of the needle. Cleverness is knowing it’s the eye of a needle and thus tricking your way past the two guardians. Honesty is not realizing it is not an actual eye you are looking for.
Actually, it’s been foolishness that’s gotten people booted from the egg. Neuronet turning Phlogiston into a meat puppet, Flamedrake assuming that a secret he’s so open about was secret, Conjuror leaving out the one self-serving part of why he was there. Cleverness has actually been rewarded, such as when 84 noticed the unchanging scenery and tested it, proving they were in a loop.
My take:
This story arc is about FISS trying to get themselves more appreciated. How do you get others to see that you’re more than just might and muscle? By showing that you *know* how to use said might and muscle.
Oddly enough she isn’t always the villain. Most of the time she is but occasionally she is helpful. Though usually you have to trick her to get the help.
If what she says is true and she actually is trapped until someone else recovers the Eye then it’s in her best interest to help 84 succeed since it gets her out at the same time. Only stupid evil sorts would try to work evil in a situation like that just to be evil when it would keep them stuck there and the witch is anything but Stupid Evil.
Good point. Furthermore, since the mist wall specifically said that “Eye” was not a good description of what Julie is looking for and we know Baba Yaga is both powerful and knowledgeable, Julie should ask Baba Yaga what to take. Or, more generally, ask for help and/or advice.
Julie might be making herself an enemy. But Baba Yaga is, as previously mentioned, not stupid – she’ll use Julie to get out of the egg if she needs to, even if she bears a grudge after. And at that point, it might not be a grudge she bothers to pursue unless Julie winds up on her turf down the road.
Honest respect (rather than craven flattery) goes a long way with the likes of Baba Yaga – it’s if she feels you’re wasting her time, or not taking her seriously that she’s dangerous.
Also, the fact she approached Julie rather than the other way around means she’s at a disadvantage for taking offense – she’d be much more likely to turn nasty if Julie had come to bother her…
The thing is: right now, Baba Yaga would be very, very happy just to have a way OUT of her current predicament. Therefor, if Julie retrieving the Eye of Koschei will allow Baba Yaga to escape … it is in her own best interests to BE helpful to Julie right now.
The danger comes, once the escape is effected and secured. THAT is when Julie will have to watch her back … and maybe learn that she can’t completely trust people she doesn’t know very well, no matter how helpful they seem to be.
If all the contents of the Eggverse were to be freed, and Baba Yaga is only the worst of them, then letting Veles have New York, and leaving the Egg intact would be a fine trade off.
Then again, just imagine how much more interesting life at the Praetorian Academy would get with Baba Yaga teaching there.
Once again, I’m wishing we had a “like” button for posts. I plan to shamelessly steal your “out of left field” line for my own use.
I also didn’t see this one coming. Fortunately for Julie, the tales usually show Baba Yaga as having no power for evil over the pure of heart, to whom she sometimes plays the role of helper/wise woman. But yeah, like Wanderer said, Julie’d be wise to “watch her back”.
Back, front, sides, and both ends. Baba Yaga is clever, cunning, and ruthless. If you expect an attack where it’s least expected, she will find another way.
Julie really should watch her tongue here. Yes, her comment about eating children was not meant to be insulting — it’s just the first thing she came up with when “wicked witch from fairy tales” came up. The fact that she hit the nail on the head and could easily be seen as accusatory is…
…actually, if Julie knew that she regularly eats children, I’m pretty sure Baba Yaga would be in for a very rough time of things. I don’t know how effective either would be at disabling or destroying the other, but it wouldn’t turn out well, regardless.
Hmm I don’t know if that is necessarily the case.
I don’t actually know any tales of the Baba Yaga, but when I play some pen&paper witch-like characters show a rather big tendency to use magic for deceit instead of brains.
And trying to mind-control the guardian or cast an illusion that she said whatever the guardian thought was the correct answer might be called a trick, but is also an approach that uses magical muscles over actual cleverness.
Not really. 84 got through the mist by being clever. A rejection of a moral of the value of cleverness would be someone getting through by force where the clever fail, not two people trying to be clever and only one of them succeeding.
To expound on these other guys, the knowledge that cheating the mist guardian would get her trapped would have prevented it. Similarly, the cleverness of being honest is a better option for 84 than trying to use might and muscle.
I’m by no means an expert in slavic fokelore, so my first reaction to seeing the name Baba Yaga was to look her up.
The one minute research I did indicated that, occasionally, she takes on a maternal role, and is sometimes a helpful figure. It may be that this is one of those times.
Then again, as often as she is… not helpful, I’d take her advice with a grain of salt.
Remember, as a friend of mine has remarked on occasion, “The purpose of Fairy Tales is to warn us to STAY AWAY FROM THE GOD-DAMNED FAIRIES!”
Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.
~ G.K. Chesterton, writing the original lines, in Tremendous Trifles, Book XVII: The Red Angel (1909)
I dunno, Mythical Baba Yaga was pretty crazy powerful. Whether she’s enough to eat a FISS without a lot of prep depends on which Baba Yaga you’re drawing inspiration from, and how I your FISS is.
But given a 10 minute time limit rather than unlimited time, If Baba Yaga delays 84 at all trying it wouldn’t be good for Manhattan.
First, Baba Yaga is dispensing wise advice here. She’s been known to do that in some tales, and it seems to be in her best interest to be helpful in this case, but she usually doesn’t just volunteer it. Is she really Baba Yaga? Could she be an illusion? (I wouldn’t put it past the Koschei.) The egg is full of tests, but it also teaches.
Second, what exactly is that image she’s creating? It looks like a star system, and by placement and color, it could be ours as far out as Jupiter. Is it a hint for Julie? If she’s bound from directly revealing information, she would certainly find ways around the restriction (out of pique, if nothing else).
Julie isn’t asking Baba Yaga if she eats children. She’s asking if BY is claiming to eat children. Asking for elucidation of a statement is not an insult. BY appears to be playing mind games here, though I can’t quite figure out what her motive could be.
Baba Yaga is not known for her stability or logic, in regards to personal interactions. Don’t claim to tell her what she should be insulted by. She’s perfectly capable of deciding for herself.
(On the other hand, she is known for sticking by the letter of any deals she makes, and can be very helpful if the mood suits her. The Koschei is straight lawful evil. Baba Yaga is a ‘it’s complicated’ chaotic neutral. I wouldn’t really want to face either, but of the two I’d feel safer against Koschei.)
Would 84 believe her if she said “no”. what about “yes”? There is no point in answering that question, because the answer will always be wrong. Also, BY was never asked directly if she ate kids, only whether or not when she said wicked witch did she mean the kind that ate kids. One could be the kind of witch that ate kids, without actually eating kids. My car is the kind of car that can exceed 200 km/hr, but I’ve never driven that fast in it.
So the moral dilemma becomes “is Manhattan worth releasing Baba Yaga on to the world again”?
Think about it 84!! He didn’t say he’d hurt anyone, just turn it into his pleasure palace (With a gift shop for the tourists!)! Baba Yaga self-identifies as a child eating Ogress!!
Julie is learning lessons more valuable than back in school actually, the ethical and moral ones. Baba Yaga gave a good definition of the hero’s jouney and why it has always been important. Good.
huh – Baba Yaga bested by Koschei ? I would have thought the odds favoured Baba by a wide margin.
Everyone has their off days I guess. …Though knowing her I also wouldn’t be surprised if she’s working some kind of angle On him.
This is what you get for cheating. She should have known better.
Baba Yaga rocks! Love her mobile home. BTW, she owes me $5.00.
She says to look under the doormat.
So another person with a vested interest in 84’s success. She may actually know what ‘the eye’ is, but whether or not the eye is also what Koschei’s treasure is another question.
Imagining Baba Yaga let loose on a community of ultra-conservative faux Christians. Likeing what my mind sees. 😀
She would probably fit right in with the Hodo shops in New Orleans where natives shot at medevac helicopters during Katrina, something only seen in Savage Somalia before.
Wow that’s like 3 kinds of racist in one sentance. Good troll sir!
Okay, when somebody introduces themselves as Baba Yaga and there’s reason to assume they’re telling the truth…start running. And don’t stop until you’re on the next continent.
Seriously. She’s bad news :P.
Actually, it *does* depend on the tale; but yes, usually she’s the worst thing a hero can meet. And that’s compared to an arch-lich, a frigging Ghidora, and a dude who’s like a cross between Black Canary and a hurricane.
Incidentally, in the one tale I remember of Baba Yaga being helpful, the antagonist was Koshei the Deathless.
I disagree. That’s very rude behavior. She doesn’t tolerate rudeness.
Not nessesarily. Baba Yaga is a what we call a “complex character” nowadays.
Sometimes she is the villain. Sometimes she helps the hero. But mostly she is just plain ambigious.
I consider her helpfullnes/longterm problematic equal to those Order and Chaos dudes that once helped Cecil and Moonshadow:
Plain helpfull in the immediate future. But get’s back to bite you soon.
The Arch-Lich versus the Arch-Witch. I want the Pay Per View rights to that match.
Yep, this comments section needs an upvote button.
Is Baba Yaga leading 84 away from he door during this conversation?
If I’m not mistaken, she hasn’t actually used “might or muscle” to get past *any* challenges!
Interesting. Cleverness and knowledge versus might and muscles… Except that might and muscles is a way to describe the FISS and that up to now, cleverness actually got you booted out of the egg. And sticking with an honest angle (veles looking for a true honest opponent) perhaps baba yaga would make a good defender… In her role as arch witch and crone, less so in the tricking people to renounce faith role. Looking forward to the conclusion.
Except that Julie has demonstrated wit and intellect during the challenges here – she answered the first guardians’ question honestly, she also spotted the flaw in the weave of the second trap, and she paid attention to Grigor back at the beginning so she could get past the mist guardian. She’s not just a FISS – she’s a hero.
It has been a struggle between honesty and trickery. Phlo admits she tricks people being the true leader of her group and gets kicked out together with neuronet who is hardly better than a villain. Firedrake admits his “fraud” and leaves the egg. Magic man should have been aware of his blatant dishonesty…
cleverness as in outwitting is being punished. Veles is a trickster God, his nemesis can’t be someone dishonest. Julie has integrity and she is intelligent and perceptive, that is not cleverness. See the eye of the needle. Cleverness is knowing it’s the eye of a needle and thus tricking your way past the two guardians. Honesty is not realizing it is not an actual eye you are looking for.
Actually, it’s been foolishness that’s gotten people booted from the egg. Neuronet turning Phlogiston into a meat puppet, Flamedrake assuming that a secret he’s so open about was secret, Conjuror leaving out the one self-serving part of why he was there. Cleverness has actually been rewarded, such as when 84 noticed the unchanging scenery and tested it, proving they were in a loop.
Agreeing with Jonathan S and Wanderer.
My take:
This story arc is about FISS trying to get themselves more appreciated. How do you get others to see that you’re more than just might and muscle? By showing that you *know* how to use said might and muscle.
wait…Baba yaga is being HELPFUL…oh crap
Oddly enough she isn’t always the villain. Most of the time she is but occasionally she is helpful. Though usually you have to trick her to get the help.
If what she says is true and she actually is trapped until someone else recovers the Eye then it’s in her best interest to help 84 succeed since it gets her out at the same time. Only stupid evil sorts would try to work evil in a situation like that just to be evil when it would keep them stuck there and the witch is anything but Stupid Evil.
Good point. Furthermore, since the mist wall specifically said that “Eye” was not a good description of what Julie is looking for and we know Baba Yaga is both powerful and knowledgeable, Julie should ask Baba Yaga what to take. Or, more generally, ask for help and/or advice.
Generally, she was okay as long as you were respectful.
Generally.
But watch your back.
Yes, if you haven’t ticked her off than you should be okay.
Problem – she doesn’t like people asking her questions. 84’s already asked a couple.
Julie might be making herself an enemy. But Baba Yaga is, as previously mentioned, not stupid – she’ll use Julie to get out of the egg if she needs to, even if she bears a grudge after. And at that point, it might not be a grudge she bothers to pursue unless Julie winds up on her turf down the road.
Unless Baba Yaga is trying to trick Julie into taking her place, bound there unable to go forth or return.
Honest respect (rather than craven flattery) goes a long way with the likes of Baba Yaga – it’s if she feels you’re wasting her time, or not taking her seriously that she’s dangerous.
Also, the fact she approached Julie rather than the other way around means she’s at a disadvantage for taking offense – she’d be much more likely to turn nasty if Julie had come to bother her…
The thing is: right now, Baba Yaga would be very, very happy just to have a way OUT of her current predicament. Therefor, if Julie retrieving the Eye of Koschei will allow Baba Yaga to escape … it is in her own best interests to BE helpful to Julie right now.
The danger comes, once the escape is effected and secured. THAT is when Julie will have to watch her back … and maybe learn that she can’t completely trust people she doesn’t know very well, no matter how helpful they seem to be.
Baba Yaga has admitted to being an evil fairy tale witch. Julie is far too intelligent to miss that this is A Bad Thing (TM).
Hope she remembers she is on a time schedule here!
If all the contents of the Eggverse were to be freed, and Baba Yaga is only the worst of them, then letting Veles have New York, and leaving the Egg intact would be a fine trade off.
Then again, just imagine how much more interesting life at the Praetorian Academy would get with Baba Yaga teaching there.
The Baba Yaga.
I did NOT see this coming.
This is so far out of left field, it broke someone’s windshield in the parking lot.
I’m not complaining, mind you. I’m just really surprised at this turn.
I wasn’t expecting it, but their stories do indeed come from the same part of the world.
Once again, I’m wishing we had a “like” button for posts. I plan to shamelessly steal your “out of left field” line for my own use.
I also didn’t see this one coming. Fortunately for Julie, the tales usually show Baba Yaga as having no power for evil over the pure of heart, to whom she sometimes plays the role of helper/wise woman. But yeah, like Wanderer said, Julie’d be wise to “watch her back”.
Back, front, sides, and both ends. Baba Yaga is clever, cunning, and ruthless. If you expect an attack where it’s least expected, she will find another way.
Julie really should watch her tongue here. Yes, her comment about eating children was not meant to be insulting — it’s just the first thing she came up with when “wicked witch from fairy tales” came up. The fact that she hit the nail on the head and could easily be seen as accusatory is…
…actually, if Julie knew that she regularly eats children, I’m pretty sure Baba Yaga would be in for a very rough time of things. I don’t know how effective either would be at disabling or destroying the other, but it wouldn’t turn out well, regardless.
So long as the monologue doesn’t take ten minutes, listening to Baba Yaga isn’t a bad idea.
Of course, realizing she’s giving clues as to what the ‘eye’ is, philosophically at least, would also mean you’ve found it…
“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.”
― G.K. Chesterton
Aw, you beat me to posting this quote! 😀
“Cleverness is better than brute force”.
“When I tried to trick the mist I totally got caught in a time trap to stay here forever”.
Sounds like she’s trying to make a moral that her own experiences don’t justify. :p
She’s passing down information she gained from her own mistakes.
Like a teacher, one might say…
Hmm I don’t know if that is necessarily the case.
I don’t actually know any tales of the Baba Yaga, but when I play some pen&paper witch-like characters show a rather big tendency to use magic for deceit instead of brains.
And trying to mind-control the guardian or cast an illusion that she said whatever the guardian thought was the correct answer might be called a trick, but is also an approach that uses magical muscles over actual cleverness.
There’s a difference between clever and deceit. An arguably fine line, but still.
Cleverness is synonymous with intelligence, not with deceit. Any fool can lie. It takes intelligence to know when lying is a Bad Idea.
Not really. 84 got through the mist by being clever. A rejection of a moral of the value of cleverness would be someone getting through by force where the clever fail, not two people trying to be clever and only one of them succeeding.
To expound on these other guys, the knowledge that cheating the mist guardian would get her trapped would have prevented it. Similarly, the cleverness of being honest is a better option for 84 than trying to use might and muscle.
I’m by no means an expert in slavic fokelore, so my first reaction to seeing the name Baba Yaga was to look her up.
The one minute research I did indicated that, occasionally, she takes on a maternal role, and is sometimes a helpful figure. It may be that this is one of those times.
Then again, as often as she is… not helpful, I’d take her advice with a grain of salt.
Remember, as a friend of mine has remarked on occasion, “The purpose of Fairy Tales is to warn us to STAY AWAY FROM THE GOD-DAMNED FAIRIES!”
No 84 not so much like the ones who eats kids, more like the one responsible for that archtype existing.
Not an expert in Russian mythology, but as I recall Baba Yaga wasn’t averse to a nice suckling roast long pig…
I wonder what Julie would do if she knew the old hag regularly ate children.
Piglet, rather.
Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.
~ G.K. Chesterton, writing the original lines, in Tremendous Trifles, Book XVII: The Red Angel (1909)
A+ and an imaginary social network-based upvote.
Well I guess Baba Yaga could get out and become veles’s new opponent. But I wouldn’t like to be the collateral damage in the action theater.
You know, asking about people who eat children is a sensible question, especially if you are a child who does not want to be eaten
OTOH, even for Baba Yaga, I think trying to eat Julie would be a Bad Idea.
I dunno, Mythical Baba Yaga was pretty crazy powerful. Whether she’s enough to eat a FISS without a lot of prep depends on which Baba Yaga you’re drawing inspiration from, and how I your FISS is.
But given a 10 minute time limit rather than unlimited time, If Baba Yaga delays 84 at all trying it wouldn’t be good for Manhattan.
Julie will get the eye, then toss it to baba? City saved, nemesis job passed onto the person of appropriate power and knowledge.
Some interesting things here.
First, Baba Yaga is dispensing wise advice here. She’s been known to do that in some tales, and it seems to be in her best interest to be helpful in this case, but she usually doesn’t just volunteer it. Is she really Baba Yaga? Could she be an illusion? (I wouldn’t put it past the Koschei.) The egg is full of tests, but it also teaches.
Second, what exactly is that image she’s creating? It looks like a star system, and by placement and color, it could be ours as far out as Jupiter. Is it a hint for Julie? If she’s bound from directly revealing information, she would certainly find ways around the restriction (out of pique, if nothing else).
Actually, that should be out to Saturn.
Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.
No idea how I missed Saturn out there, but yes. Still pondering what it could mean.
Julie isn’t asking Baba Yaga if she eats children. She’s asking if BY is claiming to eat children. Asking for elucidation of a statement is not an insult. BY appears to be playing mind games here, though I can’t quite figure out what her motive could be.
Why is Baba Yaga playing mind games? The question answers itself.
Baba Yaga is not known for her stability or logic, in regards to personal interactions. Don’t claim to tell her what she should be insulted by. She’s perfectly capable of deciding for herself.
(On the other hand, she is known for sticking by the letter of any deals she makes, and can be very helpful if the mood suits her. The Koschei is straight lawful evil. Baba Yaga is a ‘it’s complicated’ chaotic neutral. I wouldn’t really want to face either, but of the two I’d feel safer against Koschei.)
BTW- Do you notice that Baba Yaga Never answered the “Do you eat children?” question?.
Would 84 believe her if she said “no”. what about “yes”? There is no point in answering that question, because the answer will always be wrong. Also, BY was never asked directly if she ate kids, only whether or not when she said wicked witch did she mean the kind that ate kids. One could be the kind of witch that ate kids, without actually eating kids. My car is the kind of car that can exceed 200 km/hr, but I’ve never driven that fast in it.
There is an old russian proverb that applies in this situation. When one sups with the devil one should use a very long spoon. Watch your step 84.
So.. just what was that flare Baba Yaga sent up, what message did it carry, and to whom?
Will we meet Koschei in the next ten minutes?
So the moral dilemma becomes “is Manhattan worth releasing Baba Yaga on to the world again”?
Think about it 84!! He didn’t say he’d hurt anyone, just turn it into his pleasure palace (With a gift shop for the tourists!)! Baba Yaga self-identifies as a child eating Ogress!!
Julie is learning lessons more valuable than back in school actually, the ethical and moral ones. Baba Yaga gave a good definition of the hero’s jouney and why it has always been important. Good.