Then it becomes a race in him casting a spell to leave and number 4 to kill him… A better tactic might be to play Tic Tac Toe and lose. That way he “bested” you and you get to live.
But I’m guessing he only has to beat two more people now… or is he already counting our fallen hero?
I don’t think that’s how it works. He has to ward off intruders, not win inconsequential games. Tic Tac Toe would only work if the loser was expelled from the egg, and then they’d be three “heroes” short.
I’m not sure he’s overly concerned about that point. The fourth one will most likely be on death’s door as well. Unless someone new comes along, and is “fresher” than those starving together as a group.
I don’t recall Veles saying he’d let them back out after 7 hours. Only that he’d turn Manhattan into his personal pleasure temple with gift shop at that point. Time is not on groups side in many ways.
Wait, it just occurred to me… Why didn’t the otherwise useless minion master just override the guy their dealing with? Given his powers, he should have been able to simply take control of their opponent and have him release them from the circle.
Back on the page in question, I think someone thought that the wizard wouldn’t be easy enough to control, either because of magical protection, or mental power. Which makes enough sense for me, in case the minion master even thought of it himself.
Simple answer… Because that would be the smart thing to do. I mean if you have mind control powers then why don’t they just simply manipulate villains to stop doing crime? Because that would be unethical… or something.
IF you asking then why was it okay to manipulate the other two…
Well answer 1 – He can control their body and abilities, but not their mind so he could make the wizard bash his head into a wall, but not make him say the answer.
Answer 2 – Because heroes are expected to take the risks, but doing so on a villain isn’t “right” and I am willing to bet money that the other two heroes will agree. Messed up super logic at it’s finest!
There’s a big difference between mind-controlling someone to stop an ongoing crime and capture them compared to permanently modifying their mind to force certain behaviors on them. An example of that which qualifies as values dissonance happens in the older Doc Savage books, where he had a ‘rehabilitation’ center where he basically brainwashed captured opponents including using brain surgery to force good behavior on them and ‘cure’ them of being evil. We later realized how reprehensible that would be and the novels soon downplayed that and left it as just a vague kind of rehabilitation without the squicky mind-controlling elements.
As far as why Neuronet never appeared to try and just stop Rastov he likely couldn’t, and we know he and his team had no problems trying to do it to Velos (which failed because they couldn’t even connect to his mind to try) so it’s not like they have any issues with trying to mind-control an opponent to defeat them (probably their main trick). So Rastov just has too good a mental shield for Neuronet to dominate him.
It’s also possible that the idea simply never occurred to Neuronet. For all his talk of being “better” than FISS, he seems to have a remarkable inability to think outside his preconceptions.
Given Neuronet’s failure to control Phlogiston’s powers, I suppose knowledge of how other people’s abilities work is essential.
Magic users’ abilities rely on magical knowledge: knowledge that Neuronet doesn’t have.
So I don’t think he can control Rastov and have him cast spells. However, he could have froze Rastov in place and let the Conjurer magically restrain him.
Possible reason:
He was out of range…
He has a general inability agaisnt magic types…
It only worked with Phlogiston and 84 because he flatfooted them…
Rastov already had his shield up…
Rastovs level of mage/power level is generally resistant to mind control…
Whatevere makes Rastov indestructible also protects him from beign controlled…
I could propably think of 1-2 more, if I was not so tired right now.
Hummm… Given his actions here, I wonder if Neuronet is going to return to find his “teammates” have filed restraining orders and sough injunctions to prevent his using his powers on them?
According to http://ps238.nodwick.com/comic/2014-11-24/, our heroes only have seven hours to complete their mission. However, it’s not clear whether time spent in a loop counts. I still think that the doors will be unlocked by positive traits. The next positive act could be doing something to help Phlogiston, demonstrating loyalty, but there are other options.
I don’t think those would qualities valued by someone called “Koschei the Deathless”.
Then again the egg seems to serve as a prison for dangerous elements such as “Rastov the Great” so Koschei could very well be a hero with bad publicity. (In that case, Veles’ plan to steal his eye could spell trouble if successful.)
To be fair we are talking about someone who holds a magical soul jar. If only the good can take it then it’s making sure the right qualities can take it… aka someone who will not destroy it right away or use it to control him. Better to face a friendship speech and steal the egg back than to face let a self-proclaimed hero destroy it.
Besides who would expect positive emotions to be the force protecting a killer monster? That’s like saying General Massacre’s power is fuelled by kindness and hope… which is exactly why he is killing people. That way when the heroes pop up he gains even MORE power making it nearly impossible to kill him, because you would have to be just as crazy and ruthless as he is.
You can always break out of jail. Not so much from death.
If I remember right from my Russian fairy tales, “Koschei the Deathless” couldn’t be killed, because he didn’t keep his heart in his body. “In a chest, in an egg, under a goose, in a room, in a castle, in the middle of a lake?” Maybe they should have checked that castle in the middle of the lake, where they started, for a room with a goose in it? Of course, they’re already in an egg. Just saying, they should keep an eye out, anything might be significant. Anyone search that house they passed (and passed, and passed…)?
Koschei the Deathless (the soubriquet hasn’t been directly referenced in comic yet, though?) has also been translated less ominously as Koschei the Immortal. He hid his soul inside a needle, inside an egg, inside a duck etc. etc. so he couldn’t be killed. (OK: my guess, the “eye” they need to find at the centre will actually be the eye of a needle! 🙂 Possibly hidden in some kind of haystack 😉 )
Hmmmm, looks like I was wrong and when someone suggested simply surrendering that that might indeed be the solution. They surrender, he shuts down the loop, they go on their way and he leaves the Egg a free man (hopefully without suffering that old screwover of ‘okay now you get all those years you didn’t age now that the contract’s over’).
Either they simply declare themselves defeated and continue on, or three of them admit defeat and are expelled from the egg, allowing the other two to continue onwards. Which will inevitably lead to serious issues with the Narcissism Squad. Place your bets now: which one will propose trial by combat first?
Of course, if Phlogiston counts against those three, then only two have to disappear. I’m hoping that she’s dissipated but not gone forever, as I could see her proving to be a great mentor for 84.
Regardless I expect 84 will end up continuing on with at least Dr Moonface Helmet, and in the end we’ll see a ‘hero’ attempt to take her down so they can emerge victorious. Probably ol’ Moonface, likely while offering some egotistical rationalization for his actions.
No, she’s suffered the pain of exposure to Argonite, the pain of having blood drawn to cure Tyler, and I believe she also got some pain during the Rainmaker arc since she was one of many depowered at the time and ran painfully into things if memory serves. Probably others.
Looking back it does seem she wasn’t able to do anything, when Emerald Gauntlet had to contain the radioactive girl the rest of the class was trapped behind the cube of emerald energy he filled the hallway with to contain her. Only Von Fogg could get through and all he was interested in was give one of his standard Minion applications to the Rainmaker. Which is an amusing play on words now that I think about it, since to a super someone who can shut off their powers or make them dangerously out of control it would certainly qualify as bringing rain in the metaphorical sense into their lives by taking away that certainty.
I think she also complained about a headache after she fought that touch-telepath lady in her head, IIRC. So it may just be people hammering their way into her brain hurts. Go fig.
Uh oh. He only needs to best three of them. Best case scenario, that means three is all that is left on his tally, and that maybe the remainder of them can continue.
Worst case scenario, after explosion we have only seen conjuror and 84. Phlogiston may have already been ‘bested’. Firedrake may have been caught in the blast, or neuronet may have bit it from psychic feedback. Meaning, there may only be three left.
Also, does 84’s “ow” have more to do with getting rammed into a forcewall or from psychic domination?
Once again, folks seem to be missing the obvious: once he has defeated three of the heroes, he loses all motive to oppose the others. They don’t need to kill him, or even fight him: he’s been quite clear that once he has bested three of them, he’ll end the time loop and leave.
He has described letting them starve to death as a way to “best” them, but only in response to their plan to destroy him. Now would be a good time to seek clarification of what constitutes “defeat” under his contract.
It seems quite likely that “defeat” doesn’t have to be fatal, so if three of the five agree to be defeated, his contract is over and the remaining two can continue on.
I’m not sure I’m with the “power of friendship” people, but the obstacles so far do seem to have been specifically designed to stop people whose idea of how to pass them is to smash them. But each proved vulnerable to somebody who was willing to ask questions and talk. Rostov has made it quite clear: smashing him won’t work, since his contract makes him indestructible, but there are conditions that will remove him from the field.
So the puzzle is how to fulfill his contract without anybody getting hurt.
Wait for it. Wait for it. Patience will be rewarded with greater challenges.
Time is against them. They have an indestructible foe, but as he is an illusionist, they are probably going to optimistically conclude is likely a physical coward, however overconfident in his powers. Which will be a test of Julies character, to be sure.
The egg stops him from being truly destroyed not hurt. Why starve when you can have Rostove BBQ. We already have a mind rapist why not canabalism/torture?
In the order of time-sensitivity:
1) The seven-hour clock may be ticking and they lose anyway.
2) There is no guarantee he comes back immediately. He may only be reset by new challengers. So they would get to do it once.
3) Deficiency diseases – too little of critical vitamins in human flesh.
And that’s ignoring little things like ethics, restraint, story type (as Wanderer pointed out below), etc.
I would comment that the Wizard Roast Concept might break down for any number of other reasons. If the mechanism keeping him intact is also reclaiming the matter the originally composed him, then no nutrition will be left in the bodies of those who ate him. It’s also entirely possible that fire simply will not burn him.
Asking permission to pass likely won’t work – he won’t want to let them pass, because he wants to meet his quota. Admitting defeat could work. It only matters that he defeats them, not what he does with them, and it’s entirely possible he’ll end up immediately jettisoned from the egg upon fulfillment of the contract (on the principle that they don’t want him sticking around, unbound, in an area that’s supposed to be secure). This, in turn, means that those he “defeated” are still around to behave like they were never defeated. Of course, it’d take timing – better for everyone to say “you win, we’re beaten” all at once. Worst case scenario is that it doesn’t work, and you have to think of something else.
More of a why rostoves logic doesn’t work than what is likely to happen immortality without invulnerability opens some nasty torture posibilitys. but this is a hero game not ravenloft.
I don’t understand the setup here. This was supposed to be a race, right? Whichever of the five questers found the eye wins and the other four loses, right? So shouldn’t each quester have a chance to defeat Rashev and shouldn’t Rashev let each quester who bests him go on, allowing him to get ahead of the others?
Contrariwise, if the questers are supposed to cooperate to overcome obstacles, what’s the deal with defeating just three of them? Shouldn’t it be all or nothing?
This whole thing smacks of a series of tests of character. It’s not, “five go in, one comes out victorious with the Macguffin,” even though that’s what it’s set up as. Instead, it’s Veles’s way of testing their mettle. Who is the most intelligent, the most able to think outside the box, the best leader, the best and most entertaining opponent for him, and the best *hero.*
One guess as to who fits all of those out of our makeshift super team.
It isn’t really even set up that way. I mean, Veles clearly stated that five go in and “the one” who returns with the egg will be his new rival, but he never stated it was supposed to be a competition. He didn’t even really imply it.
So that is just the first challenge that leaves itself open to interpretation, and the real challenge might just be how you interpret it.
It hasn’t escaped me that the four of the five people chosen are each the leader of their respective teams (although Phlogiston prefers to allow someone else to appear to be the leader). I think the real test here, to identify who is the new “Champion of Earth”, is which one of them becomes the leader. The leader-of-leaders, if you will, the one that will be recognized as rightly in charge by other team leaders whenever a team-up proves necessary.
As others have pointed out, the ps238 universe draws more heavily on DC than Marvel. From my limited experience with DC, it seems like most heroes recognize that if Superman is on the field, he’s in charge. (Batman may disagree, but only on personal-level stuff. If it threatens the world and brings in the JLA, Supes in running that show.) That was Atlas, Veles’ old rival. He wants to know who fits those shoes now.
I really do think it will turn out to be 84, and not just because she’s the regular from the comic.
I mean, Mental dude (forgot his name)? I don’t think Phlogiston is going to like the idea of ever taking orders from him again. Firedrake recognizes he’s not the sharpest tool in the shed. Philogiston herself seems to like being out of the spotlight.
And Conjuror? Egotistical jerk does seem to be his thing, but perhaps it’s just hard to be humble when you’re as great as he is. 😉 He’s been out-thought by 84 twice now (When she approached the guardians to learn what the test was, then honestly told them what she was after (she probably would have added that she had no intention of stealing it, which is what they said they were preventing, if it came to that). Then when she noticed the repeating terrain that he did not. I predict he will come to realize that not all bricks are stupid, and while he may be the smartest individual, that doesn’t make him the best combat leader.
I predict that by the time they get out of the egg, each of them will have learned that, when working together, it is best to let 84 take the lead. EACH of them, including 84. She will have learned that she didn’t get drafted into a position she’s unqualified for, but that she really can be the leader of her own team.
Restricting it to a single “winner” (who may or may not *win,* depending on whether they want what they get out of it or whether they consider it a punishment) automatically turns it into a competition. Thing is, the stated competition probably isn’t what the test actually is. Veles wants to see what each of the participants is made of, and if one or two of them bypass the challenges admirably but another nabs the eye by stabbing them in the back, I doubt the backstabber will win the competition, no matter what Veles said in the beginning.
I think people should remember Veles =/= Koschei. The egg they are in was created by Koschei the Deathless to protect something of great value to him. If legend is any guide, it’s a needle containing his soul. Veles has got hold of the egg, and has set the heroes the task of getting the eye at the centre of the egg, with the threat that if no-one manages it within 7 hours, New York gets screwed. Koschei and Veles do not have the same agenda. Koschei does not want the heroes to succeed, Veles does want one of the heroes to succeed. The challenges the heroes need to overcome to get the eye of the needle are set by Koschei, not Veles. The 7 hour time limit is set by Veles, not Koschei. Rastov was imprisoned by Koschsei, not Veles. etc.
While that may be true, Veles is probably watching, and the qualities HE is looking for are being tested, albeit in a different way than Koschei is testing them. Blowing everything up, for instance, probably won’t past Veles’s requirements, even if they happen to pass Koschei’s.
I guess the two most important questions are what was Koschei trying to protect, and who was he trying to protect it from?
I mean, if the egg is really safeguarding the needle, then the method 84 used on the first guardians may well work everywhere: the thing we’re after isn’t the thing you’re trying to protect. Perhaps it would serve both their purpose and Rastov’s if they let him ensorcel them so they can’t take (or harm) the needle.
But if this is some other egg, and the “eye” is one of the things it is trying to protect, then the way to get to the center is … to respond to each challenge in a way counter to how Koschei expected his enemies to. If he expected them to try to smash, use finesse. If he expected them to lie, be honest. If he expected them to fight, talk. And in each case, vice-versa. 🙂
I suppose another good question is: does Veles need the heroes to retrieve the eye? I mean, is he incapable of getting the eye himself, or was he just looking for a handy hero-testing gauntlet and had this egg lying around? If Veles is perfectly capable of getting the eye himself, then he chose this test purely for how it would test the heroes. But if he isn’t, not only does that affect what the test might be like, it also adds the question of whether giving the eye to Veles is a good idea.
I’m still halfway convinced that Rastev’s place must never be empty in the Egg, so if he defeats three, the fourth must serve Rastev’s term, and fulfill Rastev’s quota, before being replaced..
I mean, if I were designing an Egg to protect my needle, I wouldn’t have frangible defenses.
So the trick is to convince Rastev it’s better to stay trapped in the Egg than be released just at the moment, I’d imagine.
What *really* burns me about this is that if/when it turns out that Phlogiston is, if not perfectly all right, at least not much the worse for wear, Neuronet is going to dismiss all accusations of being an inexcusably irresponsible domineering asshole by “Hey, it worked, and none of you died, so why are you complaining? No harm, no foul…” and there’s just no arguing with someone who doesn’t already understand what the problem is…
You can do the next best thing. I remember a D&D game where the archer kept shooting into a melee despite the GM imposing a 1 in 3 chance that he’d hit the wrong target, the fighter engaged in the melee. When the fighter told him to stop, the archer replied that he had plenty of hit points so what was the problem. After the fight, the fighter stuck a finger up the archer’s nose and told him that if he EVER did anything like that again, he, the fighter, would rip off his, the archer’s, nose. (Or words to that effect; I forget the exact threat). The archer never did anything like that again.
Slight flaw in the argument, I think. Once he has bested three, he is no longer protected from being destroyed by the fourth.
Then it becomes a race in him casting a spell to leave and number 4 to kill him… A better tactic might be to play Tic Tac Toe and lose. That way he “bested” you and you get to live.
But I’m guessing he only has to beat two more people now… or is he already counting our fallen hero?
I don’t think that’s how it works. He has to ward off intruders, not win inconsequential games. Tic Tac Toe would only work if the loser was expelled from the egg, and then they’d be three “heroes” short.
I’m not sure he’s overly concerned about that point. The fourth one will most likely be on death’s door as well. Unless someone new comes along, and is “fresher” than those starving together as a group.
Remember the set time limit. They only get 7 hours, total. They’re not about to starve.
But he doesn’t know that.
I don’t recall Veles saying he’d let them back out after 7 hours. Only that he’d turn Manhattan into his personal pleasure temple with gift shop at that point. Time is not on groups side in many ways.
He is likely convinced that he can defeat the fourth on his own.
And now we wait with baited breath for the other shoe to drop about the Lady Phlogiston.
Great, so three of them simply need to let him win in say arm wrestling, then the rest of them can kill him.
A game of Charades would be epic.
Wait, it just occurred to me… Why didn’t the otherwise useless minion master just override the guy their dealing with? Given his powers, he should have been able to simply take control of their opponent and have him release them from the circle.
It could be that his opponent is skilled enough to fend off his attack, or something. It’s definitely Fridge Logic, though.
Back on the page in question, I think someone thought that the wizard wouldn’t be easy enough to control, either because of magical protection, or mental power. Which makes enough sense for me, in case the minion master even thought of it himself.
Most wizards, once they have reached a certain level of ability are able to resist such things easily.
Simple answer… Because that would be the smart thing to do. I mean if you have mind control powers then why don’t they just simply manipulate villains to stop doing crime? Because that would be unethical… or something.
IF you asking then why was it okay to manipulate the other two…
Well answer 1 – He can control their body and abilities, but not their mind so he could make the wizard bash his head into a wall, but not make him say the answer.
Answer 2 – Because heroes are expected to take the risks, but doing so on a villain isn’t “right” and I am willing to bet money that the other two heroes will agree. Messed up super logic at it’s finest!
There’s a big difference between mind-controlling someone to stop an ongoing crime and capture them compared to permanently modifying their mind to force certain behaviors on them. An example of that which qualifies as values dissonance happens in the older Doc Savage books, where he had a ‘rehabilitation’ center where he basically brainwashed captured opponents including using brain surgery to force good behavior on them and ‘cure’ them of being evil. We later realized how reprehensible that would be and the novels soon downplayed that and left it as just a vague kind of rehabilitation without the squicky mind-controlling elements.
As far as why Neuronet never appeared to try and just stop Rastov he likely couldn’t, and we know he and his team had no problems trying to do it to Velos (which failed because they couldn’t even connect to his mind to try) so it’s not like they have any issues with trying to mind-control an opponent to defeat them (probably their main trick). So Rastov just has too good a mental shield for Neuronet to dominate him.
It’s also possible that the idea simply never occurred to Neuronet. For all his talk of being “better” than FISS, he seems to have a remarkable inability to think outside his preconceptions.
Given Neuronet’s failure to control Phlogiston’s powers, I suppose knowledge of how other people’s abilities work is essential.
Magic users’ abilities rely on magical knowledge: knowledge that Neuronet doesn’t have.
So I don’t think he can control Rastov and have him cast spells. However, he could have froze Rastov in place and let the Conjurer magically restrain him.
Possible reason:
He was out of range…
He has a general inability agaisnt magic types…
It only worked with Phlogiston and 84 because he flatfooted them…
Rastov already had his shield up…
Rastovs level of mage/power level is generally resistant to mind control…
Whatevere makes Rastov indestructible also protects him from beign controlled…
I could propably think of 1-2 more, if I was not so tired right now.
Or the far more obvious “the shield protects him.”
He called to 84 and Phloggy to “open your mind to me”. I’m guessing the wizard would say “….no.”
Or maybe fill your opened channel with nightmares. “I won’t open my mind, but please enjoy these torments”
Hummm… Given his actions here, I wonder if Neuronet is going to return to find his “teammates” have filed restraining orders and sough injunctions to prevent his using his powers on them?
…uh oh Phlo might not be either in the egg anymore or anywhere anymore.
According to http://ps238.nodwick.com/comic/2014-11-24/, our heroes only have seven hours to complete their mission. However, it’s not clear whether time spent in a loop counts. I still think that the doors will be unlocked by positive traits. The next positive act could be doing something to help Phlogiston, demonstrating loyalty, but there are other options.
Generosity, Loyalty, Laughter, Kindness, Honesty. The Magic of Friendship at its finest.
I don’t think those would qualities valued by someone called “Koschei the Deathless”.
Then again the egg seems to serve as a prison for dangerous elements such as “Rastov the Great” so Koschei could very well be a hero with bad publicity. (In that case, Veles’ plan to steal his eye could spell trouble if successful.)
To be fair we are talking about someone who holds a magical soul jar. If only the good can take it then it’s making sure the right qualities can take it… aka someone who will not destroy it right away or use it to control him. Better to face a friendship speech and steal the egg back than to face let a self-proclaimed hero destroy it.
Besides who would expect positive emotions to be the force protecting a killer monster? That’s like saying General Massacre’s power is fuelled by kindness and hope… which is exactly why he is killing people. That way when the heroes pop up he gains even MORE power making it nearly impossible to kill him, because you would have to be just as crazy and ruthless as he is.
You can always break out of jail. Not so much from death.
“deathless” Could be an odd way of expressing that he never took a life.
If I remember right from my Russian fairy tales, “Koschei the Deathless” couldn’t be killed, because he didn’t keep his heart in his body. “In a chest, in an egg, under a goose, in a room, in a castle, in the middle of a lake?” Maybe they should have checked that castle in the middle of the lake, where they started, for a room with a goose in it? Of course, they’re already in an egg. Just saying, they should keep an eye out, anything might be significant. Anyone search that house they passed (and passed, and passed…)?
Koschei the Deathless (the soubriquet hasn’t been directly referenced in comic yet, though?) has also been translated less ominously as Koschei the Immortal. He hid his soul inside a needle, inside an egg, inside a duck etc. etc. so he couldn’t be killed. (OK: my guess, the “eye” they need to find at the centre will actually be the eye of a needle! 🙂 Possibly hidden in some kind of haystack 😉 )
Oh, just noticed, Rastov the Great did call him Koschei the Deathless. My bad. (but the guess about the needle stands!)
Hmmmm, looks like I was wrong and when someone suggested simply surrendering that that might indeed be the solution. They surrender, he shuts down the loop, they go on their way and he leaves the Egg a free man (hopefully without suffering that old screwover of ‘okay now you get all those years you didn’t age now that the contract’s over’).
Either they simply declare themselves defeated and continue on, or three of them admit defeat and are expelled from the egg, allowing the other two to continue onwards. Which will inevitably lead to serious issues with the Narcissism Squad. Place your bets now: which one will propose trial by combat first?
Of course, if Phlogiston counts against those three, then only two have to disappear. I’m hoping that she’s dissipated but not gone forever, as I could see her proving to be a great mentor for 84.
Regardless I expect 84 will end up continuing on with at least Dr Moonface Helmet, and in the end we’ll see a ‘hero’ attempt to take her down so they can emerge victorious. Probably ol’ Moonface, likely while offering some egotistical rationalization for his actions.
Is this the first time 84 has felt pain since her powers “came in”?
No, she’s suffered the pain of exposure to Argonite, the pain of having blood drawn to cure Tyler, and I believe she also got some pain during the Rainmaker arc since she was one of many depowered at the time and ran painfully into things if memory serves. Probably others.
The rainmaker one was Ron, IIRC.
Looking back it does seem she wasn’t able to do anything, when Emerald Gauntlet had to contain the radioactive girl the rest of the class was trapped behind the cube of emerald energy he filled the hallway with to contain her. Only Von Fogg could get through and all he was interested in was give one of his standard Minion applications to the Rainmaker. Which is an amusing play on words now that I think about it, since to a super someone who can shut off their powers or make them dangerously out of control it would certainly qualify as bringing rain in the metaphorical sense into their lives by taking away that certainty.
I think she also complained about a headache after she fought that touch-telepath lady in her head, IIRC. So it may just be people hammering their way into her brain hurts. Go fig.
Uh oh. He only needs to best three of them. Best case scenario, that means three is all that is left on his tally, and that maybe the remainder of them can continue.
Worst case scenario, after explosion we have only seen conjuror and 84. Phlogiston may have already been ‘bested’. Firedrake may have been caught in the blast, or neuronet may have bit it from psychic feedback. Meaning, there may only be three left.
Also, does 84’s “ow” have more to do with getting rammed into a forcewall or from psychic domination?
I’m guessing domination.
I’d vote for the magic bolt to the face she took. FISS in DC-verse are often vulnerable to magic, and PS238 draws heavily on DC.
Once again, folks seem to be missing the obvious: once he has defeated three of the heroes, he loses all motive to oppose the others. They don’t need to kill him, or even fight him: he’s been quite clear that once he has bested three of them, he’ll end the time loop and leave.
He has described letting them starve to death as a way to “best” them, but only in response to their plan to destroy him. Now would be a good time to seek clarification of what constitutes “defeat” under his contract.
It seems quite likely that “defeat” doesn’t have to be fatal, so if three of the five agree to be defeated, his contract is over and the remaining two can continue on.
I’m not sure I’m with the “power of friendship” people, but the obstacles so far do seem to have been specifically designed to stop people whose idea of how to pass them is to smash them. But each proved vulnerable to somebody who was willing to ask questions and talk. Rostov has made it quite clear: smashing him won’t work, since his contract makes him indestructible, but there are conditions that will remove him from the field.
So the puzzle is how to fulfill his contract without anybody getting hurt.
Wait for it. Wait for it. Patience will be rewarded with greater challenges.
Time is against them. They have an indestructible foe, but as he is an illusionist, they are probably going to optimistically conclude is likely a physical coward, however overconfident in his powers. Which will be a test of Julies character, to be sure.
Or something else happens.
Exciting, isn’t it?
The egg stops him from being truly destroyed not hurt. Why starve when you can have Rostove BBQ. We already have a mind rapist why not canabalism/torture?
In the order of time-sensitivity:
1) The seven-hour clock may be ticking and they lose anyway.
2) There is no guarantee he comes back immediately. He may only be reset by new challengers. So they would get to do it once.
3) Deficiency diseases – too little of critical vitamins in human flesh.
And that’s ignoring little things like ethics, restraint, story type (as Wanderer pointed out below), etc.
I would comment that the Wizard Roast Concept might break down for any number of other reasons. If the mechanism keeping him intact is also reclaiming the matter the originally composed him, then no nutrition will be left in the bodies of those who ate him. It’s also entirely possible that fire simply will not burn him.
Asking permission to pass likely won’t work – he won’t want to let them pass, because he wants to meet his quota. Admitting defeat could work. It only matters that he defeats them, not what he does with them, and it’s entirely possible he’ll end up immediately jettisoned from the egg upon fulfillment of the contract (on the principle that they don’t want him sticking around, unbound, in an area that’s supposed to be secure). This, in turn, means that those he “defeated” are still around to behave like they were never defeated. Of course, it’d take timing – better for everyone to say “you win, we’re beaten” all at once. Worst case scenario is that it doesn’t work, and you have to think of something else.
More of a why rostoves logic doesn’t work than what is likely to happen immortality without invulnerability opens some nasty torture posibilitys. but this is a hero game not ravenloft.
…because Aaron isn’t going to go that dark in a comic where the heroes are children?
He’s gone to some dark places in the comic a few times, granted cannibalism is probably off the table. Phlo dying however isn’t.
The only person that ever died was Ambriel/Guardian Angel. And she got better within the same story arc.
I think the Septos would like to have a few words with you. I’m pretty sure that dragon in the Nodwick issue didn’t survive the explosion either.
could 84 got blown passed the loop ? And Phlogiston could have went down into the earth and also out of the loop?
I don’t understand the setup here. This was supposed to be a race, right? Whichever of the five questers found the eye wins and the other four loses, right? So shouldn’t each quester have a chance to defeat Rashev and shouldn’t Rashev let each quester who bests him go on, allowing him to get ahead of the others?
Contrariwise, if the questers are supposed to cooperate to overcome obstacles, what’s the deal with defeating just three of them? Shouldn’t it be all or nothing?
This whole thing smacks of a series of tests of character. It’s not, “five go in, one comes out victorious with the Macguffin,” even though that’s what it’s set up as. Instead, it’s Veles’s way of testing their mettle. Who is the most intelligent, the most able to think outside the box, the best leader, the best and most entertaining opponent for him, and the best *hero.*
One guess as to who fits all of those out of our makeshift super team.
It isn’t really even set up that way. I mean, Veles clearly stated that five go in and “the one” who returns with the egg will be his new rival, but he never stated it was supposed to be a competition. He didn’t even really imply it.
So that is just the first challenge that leaves itself open to interpretation, and the real challenge might just be how you interpret it.
It hasn’t escaped me that the four of the five people chosen are each the leader of their respective teams (although Phlogiston prefers to allow someone else to appear to be the leader). I think the real test here, to identify who is the new “Champion of Earth”, is which one of them becomes the leader. The leader-of-leaders, if you will, the one that will be recognized as rightly in charge by other team leaders whenever a team-up proves necessary.
As others have pointed out, the ps238 universe draws more heavily on DC than Marvel. From my limited experience with DC, it seems like most heroes recognize that if Superman is on the field, he’s in charge. (Batman may disagree, but only on personal-level stuff. If it threatens the world and brings in the JLA, Supes in running that show.) That was Atlas, Veles’ old rival. He wants to know who fits those shoes now.
I really do think it will turn out to be 84, and not just because she’s the regular from the comic.
I mean, Mental dude (forgot his name)? I don’t think Phlogiston is going to like the idea of ever taking orders from him again. Firedrake recognizes he’s not the sharpest tool in the shed. Philogiston herself seems to like being out of the spotlight.
And Conjuror? Egotistical jerk does seem to be his thing, but perhaps it’s just hard to be humble when you’re as great as he is. 😉 He’s been out-thought by 84 twice now (When she approached the guardians to learn what the test was, then honestly told them what she was after (she probably would have added that she had no intention of stealing it, which is what they said they were preventing, if it came to that). Then when she noticed the repeating terrain that he did not. I predict he will come to realize that not all bricks are stupid, and while he may be the smartest individual, that doesn’t make him the best combat leader.
I predict that by the time they get out of the egg, each of them will have learned that, when working together, it is best to let 84 take the lead. EACH of them, including 84. She will have learned that she didn’t get drafted into a position she’s unqualified for, but that she really can be the leader of her own team.
Restricting it to a single “winner” (who may or may not *win,* depending on whether they want what they get out of it or whether they consider it a punishment) automatically turns it into a competition. Thing is, the stated competition probably isn’t what the test actually is. Veles wants to see what each of the participants is made of, and if one or two of them bypass the challenges admirably but another nabs the eye by stabbing them in the back, I doubt the backstabber will win the competition, no matter what Veles said in the beginning.
I think people should remember Veles =/= Koschei. The egg they are in was created by Koschei the Deathless to protect something of great value to him. If legend is any guide, it’s a needle containing his soul. Veles has got hold of the egg, and has set the heroes the task of getting the eye at the centre of the egg, with the threat that if no-one manages it within 7 hours, New York gets screwed. Koschei and Veles do not have the same agenda. Koschei does not want the heroes to succeed, Veles does want one of the heroes to succeed. The challenges the heroes need to overcome to get the eye of the needle are set by Koschei, not Veles. The 7 hour time limit is set by Veles, not Koschei. Rastov was imprisoned by Koschsei, not Veles. etc.
While that may be true, Veles is probably watching, and the qualities HE is looking for are being tested, albeit in a different way than Koschei is testing them. Blowing everything up, for instance, probably won’t past Veles’s requirements, even if they happen to pass Koschei’s.
I guess the two most important questions are what was Koschei trying to protect, and who was he trying to protect it from?
I mean, if the egg is really safeguarding the needle, then the method 84 used on the first guardians may well work everywhere: the thing we’re after isn’t the thing you’re trying to protect. Perhaps it would serve both their purpose and Rastov’s if they let him ensorcel them so they can’t take (or harm) the needle.
But if this is some other egg, and the “eye” is one of the things it is trying to protect, then the way to get to the center is … to respond to each challenge in a way counter to how Koschei expected his enemies to. If he expected them to try to smash, use finesse. If he expected them to lie, be honest. If he expected them to fight, talk. And in each case, vice-versa. 🙂
I suppose another good question is: does Veles need the heroes to retrieve the eye? I mean, is he incapable of getting the eye himself, or was he just looking for a handy hero-testing gauntlet and had this egg lying around? If Veles is perfectly capable of getting the eye himself, then he chose this test purely for how it would test the heroes. But if he isn’t, not only does that affect what the test might be like, it also adds the question of whether giving the eye to Veles is a good idea.
I’m still halfway convinced that Rastev’s place must never be empty in the Egg, so if he defeats three, the fourth must serve Rastev’s term, and fulfill Rastev’s quota, before being replaced..
I mean, if I were designing an Egg to protect my needle, I wouldn’t have frangible defenses.
So the trick is to convince Rastev it’s better to stay trapped in the Egg than be released just at the moment, I’d imagine.
What *really* burns me about this is that if/when it turns out that Phlogiston is, if not perfectly all right, at least not much the worse for wear, Neuronet is going to dismiss all accusations of being an inexcusably irresponsible domineering asshole by “Hey, it worked, and none of you died, so why are you complaining? No harm, no foul…” and there’s just no arguing with someone who doesn’t already understand what the problem is…
You can do the next best thing. I remember a D&D game where the archer kept shooting into a melee despite the GM imposing a 1 in 3 chance that he’d hit the wrong target, the fighter engaged in the melee. When the fighter told him to stop, the archer replied that he had plenty of hit points so what was the problem. After the fight, the fighter stuck a finger up the archer’s nose and told him that if he EVER did anything like that again, he, the fighter, would rip off his, the archer’s, nose. (Or words to that effect; I forget the exact threat). The archer never did anything like that again.